High Rise's total sales likely to never match STP's S/T album first week sales

[STEAK]

Especially when all I get asked is why the band is only releasing an EP and why they "didn't just record an album" (even though we all know the answer is time).

People just find a 5 song EP to be a waste and see no point in buying it. People want full albums. They don't want an EP that they'll be done with in 17 minutes.

I mentioned this in the OTHER thread, but I'll say it again....

The EP seems like a legal strategy.  I'm pretty sure the reasons they rushed it out, and started touring right away were heavily influenced by the lawsuit.  Likely to show earning potential (among other things) as "STP" without Scott.  This would provide them with ticket and album/EP sales figures for their case. 

[John]

Especially when all I get asked is why the band is only releasing an EP and why they "didn't just record an album" (even though we all know the answer is time).

People just find a 5 song EP to be a waste and see no point in buying it. People want full albums. They don't want an EP that they'll be done with in 17 minutes.

I mentioned this in the OTHER thread, but I'll say it again....

The EP seems like a legal strategy.  I'm pretty sure the reasons they rushed it out, and started touring right away were heavily influenced by the lawsuit.  Likely to show earning potential (among other things) as "STP" without Scott.  This would provide them with ticket and album/EP sales figures for their case. 

But how do you have any IDEA of what the legalities are? 

It all depends on the original contracts with Atlantic and between themselves. 

I have a tough time believing this is about, "Your honor, as you can see, we sold almost 20,000 albums in the first week!  Clearly we aren't guilty.  Case dismissed!" 

[STEAK]

Especially when all I get asked is why the band is only releasing an EP and why they "didn't just record an album" (even though we all know the answer is time).

People just find a 5 song EP to be a waste and see no point in buying it. People want full albums. They don't want an EP that they'll be done with in 17 minutes.

I mentioned this in the OTHER thread, but I'll say it again....

The EP seems like a legal strategy.  I'm pretty sure the reasons they rushed it out, and started touring right away were heavily influenced by the lawsuit.  Likely to show earning potential (among other things) as "STP" without Scott.  This would provide them with ticket and album/EP sales figures for their case. 

But how do you have any IDEA of what the legalities are? 

It all depends on the original contracts with Atlantic and between themselves. 

I have a tough time believing this is about, "Your honor, as you can see, we sold almost 20,000 albums in the first week!  Clearly we aren't guilty.  Case dismissed!" 

It's not about guilty or innocence.  It's a lawsuit, so it's mostly based off past events, and the speculation of potential earnings (which is how many settlements/awards are reached).  Reading the court document makes the DeLeos/Eric's intentions pretty clear.

The lawsuit is only partially about the contract dispute, which is where everything else comes into play.  By hiring Chester, touring, and releasing new material, they'll have demonstrated that they're serious, and trying to further STP success (also laying claim to the STP brand for themselves).  They'll be able to compare specifics such as sales, charts, production, and touring, to times when they had problems doing these things with Scott (essentially trying to prove that he was holding them back).  In many cases, it's all about who strikes first... which by all accounts, seems to be the DeLeos/Eric (it's as if they had this all planned ahead of time).    If you've ever been involved in a lawsuit or a divorce, you'd see how these legal strategies apply.

[lovemachine97]

I don't buy the idea that people don't want to buy an EP. If this EP had two songs on it roughly as good as Interstate Love Song and Sour Girl, people would buy it. It's not that there aren't many songs, it's that the songs are all pretty good but none of them are great.


STP should have done what Pearl Jam did with their new album. They had about 6 or 7 songs that they worked on, then came back a year and a half later and worked on the rest of the record.


But that is the difference between having a producer and not having one. O'Brien would have told them (especially since he is big on single potential) to do these songs, then wait on them and do the rest of a full record when they had the chance. It would have given them time on the road to come up with more songs and spend more time crafting them.


That's what should have happened. It doesn't have anything to do with the length, but of the overall statement being put out.


I like Black Heart. But it's not a single. It wouldn't have been a single on any other STP release. And with 5-6 more songs in the can--songs that had more time to be cultivated--it probably wouldn't have been a single. It just would have been a good album track.


Tomorrow shows this incarnation has potential. The should have waited to release a better grouping of songs.

[Strat]

Let's not forget how quickly events have transpired. Over a six month period, the band succeeded in writing, recording and releasing an EP, and put on their first tour with a new singer.


I think they've accomplished a lot in a short time. Most important is that the band has established that they are still damn good, both live and in the studio. They have laid the groundwork for future tours and releases.


If the band were focused on sales only, they wouldn't have released an EP. Instead, they would've waited until they had an album's worth of material. They only had a limited time until Chester's commitment with LP kicks in. I think they've done well in that time.

[ShaneC]

I like how easily people switch from "My favorite band is number 153225 in the charts, but it means nothing because sales didn't mean shit ever" to "Ha! Look, their 5 song EP isn't going to sell too well! Losers!" mode.

1. Self-titled was supposed to be a big comeback album.
2. Self-titled was released on a major label with HUGE promotion at the start (it faded right after release)

3. This release is a five song EP from a band with a reputation fataly damaged by their former lead singer.
4. It was released on the indy label, with zero promotion.

To qoute myself: "I would say that the biggest challenge for the band is to undo all of the damage to the band's reputation and popularity that Scott caused the last few years. They will need to deal with a low attendence and lack of interest for some time solely because of Scott."

I agree with all of this.

Also, I saw Soundgarden in a very small venue earlier this year (Sound Academy, Toronto). They also need to deal with smaller crowds as they rebuild, but not many talk shit about them. Also King Animal (full album)was mediocre, IMO. I'm not sure about sales, but these days I don't think it means much.

[EyesOfDisarray]

It's not about guilty or innocence.  It's a lawsuit, so it's mostly based off past events, and the speculation of potential earnings (which is how many settlements/awards are reached).  Reading the court document makes the DeLeos/Eric's intentions pretty clear.

The lawsuit is only partially about the contract dispute, which is where everything else comes into play.  By hiring Chester, touring, and releasing new material, they'll have demonstrated that they're serious, and trying to further STP success (also laying claim to the STP brand for themselves).  They'll be able to compare specifics such as sales, charts, production, and touring, to times when they had problems doing these things with Scott (essentially trying to prove that he was holding them back).  In many cases, it's all about who strikes first... which by all accounts, seems to be the DeLeos/Eric (it's as if they had this all planned ahead of time).    If you've ever been involved in a lawsuit or a divorce, you'd see how these legal strategies apply.

By this same token, you could also suggest that maybe the Deleos/Kretz knew Scott was going to sue, and they filed their lawsuit first as a preemptive strike, to gain better legal position. Maybe when they got fed up with Scott and fired him, Scott might've threatened that he was going to sue them, and so the boys called Skip Miller to get ahead of the ball. In the same sense of legal strategy, maybe Scott's lawyers advised him that it was in his best interest to file a countersuit, because NOT doing so might contribute to an impression of guilt with a judge/jury.

Of course, this is all speculation, and we won't know about what really went down until after the lawsuits, if ever. I'm just saying: I agree with you there is probably a lot of legal maneuvering going on, but it goes both ways. We can't assume either side is in the right or not for doing something, because we just don't know enough. We know what the Deleos and Eric are claiming, and we know the history of the situation, but that's it. Has anyone even seen the documentation filed for Scott's countersuit? Is it public record?

Personally, my instincts tell me the Deleos and Eric were in the right to fire Scott and continue under the STP name, but I think they went too far asking for monetary damages and trying to bar him from playing the songs.

I do know one thing for sure: this sucks. I wish both sides would drop their lawsuits. Everyone would be better off for it.

[Pingfah]

They didn't try to bar him from performing the songs, that isn't possible legally.

[LPAssociationDerek]

They didn't try to bar him from performing the songs, that isn't possible legally.

Correct. The lawsuit was to bar him from mentioning himself as a former STP band member/using the STP name in future promotions (which imo is a little overkill).

[HelloItsLate]

They didn't try to bar him from performing the songs, that isn't possible legally.

Correct. The lawsuit was to bar him from mentioning himself as a former STP band member/using the STP name in future promotions (which imo is a little overkill).

Apparently, though, these are provisions they all agreed to at the time they signed the contract. So, whether or not it is overkill, this is the way the four of them agreed to handle things in the event something like this were to happen.

[Strat]

People seem to forget that it was Scott who first mentioned lawyers, back in February:


He added, "Not sure how I can be 'terminated' from a band that I founded, fronted, and co-wrote many of its biggest hits, but that’s something for the lawyers to figure out."




http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/27/scott-weiland-stone-temple-pilots-response-fired/

[Pingfah]

What a lot of people don't understand is that if you have a trademark and somebody breaches it, if you don't protect it you can be deemed to have abandoned it, meaning you lose the right to it entirely. So if Scott breached contract and used the trademarks illegally, then they had no choice but to sue him for it, or it would be open season on STP trademarks.

These sorts of details are why rampant fan speculation on this sort of thing is pointless. We aren't lawyers, and most fans don't have a clue what they are talking about.

[wayne gretzky]

Speculating is much easier than sticking to facts:)

[Jim The Stimulator]

To qoute myself: "I would say that the biggest challenge for the band is to undo all of the damage to the band's reputation and popularity that Scott caused the last few years. They will need to deal with a low attendence and lack of interest for some time solely because of Scott."

How does that explain AOA or Talk Show?  A pattern is emerging that the other 3 members are not popular without Scott.  This wouldn't be a problem if sales and popularity isn't important to them, but judging by the lack of a follow-up to Talk Show and AOA's debut albums, it seems to be.

[lovemachine97]

Reading the initial STP complaint is pretty jaw-dropping. Scott pretty much screwed up an entire summer tour with bad performances, extremely late start times, and even missing a date entirely.

Then he disappeared, asked for a higher percentage of tour revenue than the other three guys, wouldn't sign an agreement not to be late, then decided to steal the tour idea for his own solo band.

So, STP fires him, and he continues to use STP property in advertising his tour. By contract, he could not do this as a former member of STP.