Billboard.com Chart Position

[Layne&Wasp]

3) Alice In Chains has a successful formula that they have stuck to through thick and thin. They don't have a pop album, a heavy album, or an art-rock album. They are what they are, and they're happy with that. People who buy the new album know exactly what they're getting. STP does not have two albums that sound alike. Core made them who they are, and despite our own personal preferences, the general public wants that sound. Its what made STP relevant and popular.

Preposterous statement of the year.  I'm guessing your not very familiar with their work.  It seems as though your stating that AIC made the same album over and over.   AIC's sound evolved more than any other of the early 90's alt rock/grunge bands.  JOF was the 1st EP to hit #1 and sound snothing like Facelift and Dirt its predecessors.  BGWTB more or less compounded all of the previous albums into one album. 

I agree with your assertion that if a Core-ish album was made they would have made 500k.  People forget that AIC's first release off BGWTB only peaked at 27 on the Billboard Rock Songs chart.  It was the second single that gave AIC the boost they needed.  Obviously BTL gave STP an initial boost, but not supporting the follow up TALO killed this album.  Seriously, who releases a song that you can't play live!?!?!?!?  To think that STP caved into the pressure of releasing a song that they had no intention of playing has me dumbfounded.  It's a damn good song and a tragedy that they didn't support it.

[cheapsurprise]

Well besides owning all of their albums and being a huge fan for 10 years, no I am not at all familiar with their work. While Jar of Flies is much more mellow, I could easily see No Excuses right beside Heaven Beside You, I can see Stay Away on Dirt, I can see Rotten Apple on Dirt right beside the title track. Surprise, surprise, the first two singles were No Excuses and Stay Away, the most AIC sounding of the EP. And the ONLY reason Jar of Flies did so well is because of Dirt. It's like AC/DC releasing Back in Black and never having it hit #1, and then releasing a far-inferior For Those About To Rock, and having it hit #1. That doesn't mean its a good album. Chart peaks mean nothing, besides marking anticipation for the album.

Dirt has sold over 4 million copies, Jar of Flies sold 2.2 million copies.

If Alice in Chains had released something that sounded like Jar of Flies as their reunion album, I doubt it would have sold anything more than 100 000 copies.

Take a look down the list of their Grammy nominated songs (huge influence on the music buying public and a commentary of what is popular and what isn't):

Man in the Box, Dirt, I Stay Away, Grind, Again, Get Born Again, and Check My Brain.

I can see quite a parallel between styles there. No, they have not made the same album over and over, but they have maintained a hard rock vein through their most popular and memorable work. After all, this isn't about your opinion or mine, its about what people buy and what they don't buy.

Stone Temple Pilots have basically made 6 completely different albums where you'd have to grasp at straws to find any common thread beyond being eclectic. Core was hard from beginning to end. Purple sold well off of Core's reputation. Purple let half the listening audience down. Half of the remaining fans were further alienated by Tiny Music, then the tour cancellations, then No. 4 which was overshadowed by the mainstream success of Sour Girl. Shangri-La-Dee-Da speaks for itself.

The band didn't pull it together, and didn't put out what people want to hear from them.

[Pingfah]

cheapsurprise is right. AiC may not have made 4 identical albums, but they are no where near as diverse as STP. There IS far more consistency in their output and that is why they have held onto their core fanbase better, so his statement was hardly preposterous.

Personally though, the eclecticism is what has made STP my second favourite band ever (after Queen). I wouldn't want them to record another Core, they shouldn't be trying to pander to a bunch of people stuck in 1992. They should be making the albums they want to make, it's what they've always done, and it's why I love them.

I don't care if they alienated fans with Tiny Music, it's one of the best frigging albums ever made and went straight over the heads of the crowd who still think Sex Type Thing is a great song about sex DUDE!

[Comatose Commodity]

They are two different bands. Beatles outsold the Stones - so what? But I kind of think that AiC ended the Staley era with great stuff, the self titled album and mtv unplugged - they hadn't yet done anything less "appealing" if you will. To me, even without the magic of Layne Staley, "Black Gives way to Blue" is a better Alice album, than STP's new one is an STP album. and It's not like "Between the Lines" or "Load off" come anywhere close to the brilliance of Plush, Interstate, Sex Type Thing, Big Empty etc...
Like it or not but No.4 and Shangri were very opinion dividing - they weren't every stp fans cup of tea, and didn't attract new fans. so, yeah as far as better consistency with AIC I agree with that. If no.4 and Shangri were the first albums I had heard from STP it wouldn't have blown me away. For me it's still their first three album that are the dog's bollocks, not the latter stuff, however much  I appreciate that too.
STP really starts at square one. a) It isn't what teens are told to buy b) most people who were young and into stp/other rock in 1992-1994 are now with their own kids going to the lady gaga concerts. The ones who bought it are the hardcore fans, the on/off fans digging "Between the Lines" and thinking it's great to have a real rock band back and the new fans, having maybe had an older sibling blasting Purple or Core and it's made an impact.

[Layne&Wasp]

cheapsurprise is right. AiC may not have made 4 identical albums, but they are no where near as diverse as STP. There IS far more consistency in their output and that is why they have held onto their core fanbase better, so his statement was hardly preposterous.

Facelift and Dirt are very different albums and compared to Core and Purple had evolved their sound more while lyrical content evolved astronomically .  Weiland himself has said that this album is "back to the basics". "It's a different sound for us (referencing Cinnamon), but this is a STONE TEMPLE PILOTS rock record."
"

I can see Stay Away on Dirt

I guess I missed the part on "Would?" where the orchestra kicks in.  Rotten Apple on Dirt, no chance, not heavy enough.

Take a look down the list of their Grammy nominated songs (huge influence on the music buying public and a commentary of what is popular and what isn't):

Man in the Box, Dirt, I Stay Away, Grind, Again, Get Born Again, and Check My Brain.
 

"Huge" fan huh?  You do realize the song "Dirt" was never nominated for a Grammy, it was the album.
 

It's like AC/DC releasing Back in Black and never having it hit #1, and then releasing a far-inferior For Those About To Rock, and having it hit #1. That doesn't mean its a good album. Chart peaks mean nothing, besides marking anticipation for the album.

Are you implying that JOF is a far-inferior album to Dirt with your AC/DC comparisons?  I will leave that one alone.  There are a bevy of reasons why Back in Black never hit #1;
1) Bon Scott's death and replacement by Brian Johnson forced listeners to wait until they actually heard how   Johnson meshed with Angus and Malcolm.
2) The album debuted the same week as the Rolling Stones - Emotional Rescue, and after a steady climb it did peak at #4.
3) Their US tour started after BIB was released.  If they had been touring the US for the whole month prior to its release they would have hit #1. 

No, they have not made the same album over and over, but they have maintained a hard rock vein through their most popular and memorable work.

Actually its the opposite.   AIC's 2 EP releases were sandwiched between 3 hard rock albums.  There was no "hard rock vein" but rather a very contrasting sound album to album.  But what do I know, I've only seen them 9 times.
 
As far as slotting specific songs from JOF to Dirt and so on, the same transition is applicable on STP albums.  "Meatplow and Army Ants" could be slotted on Core, "Peacoat" on Purple, "Long Way Home" has a "Where the River Goes" feel,  "Hollywood Bitch" and "Big Bang Baby" are very similar and so on... 
 
This is an STP board so of course the majority of opinions will state that they are more diverse than AIC.  Head over to an AIC board and the opinions change.  Me, I personally feel AIC has treaded more water lyrically and musically.

[cheapsurprise]

I would bet anything in the world that I could find 100 articles that claim Alice In Chains new single sounded like "classic Alice In Chains", or that it has "that Alice In Chains sound" or some such comparison to their earlier work. That is because the public doesn't give two shits about Jar of Flies or Sap. There's hardly anything memorable in the public's view on any of them. Again, I'm not talking about OUR opinions which clearly differ, I'm talking about the 80% of people that buy the albums who aren't hardcore fans.


I didn't hear anybody say this sounds like "classic STP" or an "STP sound" because STP doesn't have a sound. Their sound in the casual fans eyes is Core. Nobody is going to advise the general public to buy this album because they'll sound like an idiot if they call it the classic STP sound.


Alice In Chains has the harmonies, the grooves, the heavy metal side, the blends of soft and loud. STP doesn't have any of that known aspect because they've alienated their fan base. I've never seen Alice In Chains take a risk, and I'm glad they didn't because their popular sound is, imo, the best and freshest from that era of early 90s "alternative bands". If they took a risk, I wouldn't buy it anymore. And I'm talking musical risks, obviously replacing a deceased vocalist who is synonymous with the band name is taking a risk.


As for your AC/DC statement, that's a pile of bull. Highway To Hell didn't even chart in the US besides the single which was barely a Top 20 hit. I seriously seriously doubt that replacing Bon Scott resulted in Back in Black not hitting number one. For Those About To Rock only hit number one because of the predecessor, not because of the material on that album. If you truly believe chart positions represent the music on the album, then you are essentially saying that FTATR had more hits than Back In Black which is completely ridiculous.


The only reason Jar of Flies hit #1 was because of Dirt preceding it. 


As for Weiland, he's trying to appeal to the fans by saying that its a rock record. Clearly its a rock record, but it sure as hell isn't a hard rock record with any sound they are known for. FKOM, Maver, Cinnamon, Bagman, Dare if You Dare and Hickory Dichotomy have absolutely nothing to do with anything STP was known for in terms of their mainstream popular fanbase.

While you and I may enjoy those albums and songs, the vast majority of people do not find them memorable, and do not reference them as the band's classic sound. I'm not saying anything is better or worse, I personally enjoy it all.

[Ivy]

Alrighty...let's get back to the subject.

[lovemachine97]

Look, this isn't that hard to comprehend.  AIC, while versatile, still sounds like them.  Save probably 3 songs, no one is going to mistake Rotten Apple or I Stay Away as being any other band.  Even when Alice in Chains expands their horizons, they are almost always recognizable.  Tom Waits is quite versatile.  Ever hear a song and you're surprised that it's Tom Waits?  Same thing.  Much of Jerry's solo stuff had the AIC hallmark, and Mad Season also sounds like Alice in Chains.

However, play someone Dead & Bloated, Sour Girl, Art School Girlfriend, I Got You, Atlanta, Maver, Cinnamon, etc., etc., and the average rock fan will have a hard time saying that it is all STP.  Further, Weiland's solo stuff, as well as Army of Anyone and Talk Show are even more diverse, making it much more difficult to pinpoint.  It Ain't Like That ain't far from Check My Brain.  Maver is a far cry from Dead and Bloated.

THIS is why STP has a hard time selling new records.  As I stated a page or two ago--their best feature is the worst feature to have if you wanna sell a ton of albums.  When AIC comes out with a new record, you know you're going to put it on and instantly recognize that it is AIC.  However, that hasn't been the case with STP for 14 years. 

[cheapsurprise]

Look, this isn't that hard to comprehend.  AIC, while versatile, still sounds like them.  Save probably 3 songs, no one is going to mistake Rotten Apple or I Stay Away as being any other band.  Even when Alice in Chains expands their horizons, they are almost always recognizable.  Tom Waits is quite versatile.  Ever hear a song and you're surprised that it's Tom Waits?  Same thing.  Much of Jerry's solo stuff had the AIC hallmark, and Mad Season also sounds like Alice in Chains.

However, play someone Dead & Bloated, Sour Girl, Art School Girlfriend, I Got You, Atlanta, Maver, Cinnamon, etc., etc., and the average rock fan will have a hard time saying that it is all STP.  Further, Weiland's solo stuff, as well as Army of Anyone and Talk Show are even more diverse, making it much more difficult to pinpoint.  It Ain't Like That ain't far from Check My Brain.  Maver is a far cry from Dead and Bloated.

THIS is why STP has a hard time selling new records.  As I stated a page or two ago--their best feature is the worst feature to have if you wanna sell a ton of albums.  When AIC comes out with a new record, you know you're going to put it on and instantly recognize that it is AIC.  However, that hasn't been the case with STP for 14 years. 

What he said

[Pingfah]

Facelift and Dirt are very different albums and compared to Core and Purple had evolved their sound more while lyrical content evolved astronomically .

So what? STP had another 4 albums after that, incorporating heavy elements of jazz, mainstream pop, avant garde, country etc during which time their popularity decreased massively. AiC are versatile, but not to that sort of extent.

You seem to be taking people's comments as an attack on AiC, they aren't. Most people here LOVE AiC, myself included. People are just trying to explain why STP don't sell as many records anymore. You seem to have a problem with simply accepting reality though.

Weiland himself has said that this album is "back to the basics". "It's a different sound for us (referencing Cinnamon), but this is a STONE TEMPLE PILOTS rock record."

And anyone with a sliver of objectivity can see that this is plainly untrue. The album is nothing like Core or Purple.

[Layne&Wasp]

I will resptect Ivy's request after this final rebuttle (since 3 posters have replied after your request).

That is because the public doesn't give two shits about Jar of Flies or Sap. There's hardly anything memorable in the public's view on any of them. Again, I'm not talking about OUR opinions which clearly differ, I'm talking about the 80% of people that buy the albums who aren't hardcore fans.

Wow.  Just wow.  Do you want me to post the hundreds of reviews and multitude of rock polls by fans that will contradict this crap?

So what? STP had another 4 albums after that, incorporating heavy elements of jazz, mainstream pop, avant garde, country etc during which time their popularity decreased massively. AiC are versatile, but not to that sort of extent.

JOF's alone incorporated country, folk, blues, jazz, orchestra, grunge, and 80s metal.  And vocally, AIC is far more versatile than STP.  If you cant concede that your delusional.

You seem to have a problem with simply accepting reality though.

Your OPINION is reality... have another.  I have a problem with people labeling AIC as "they are what they are".  When JOF's was released fans certainly didn't say anything remotely close to that. Either did the critics.  In hindsight people look back and say "sounds like AIC", but in 1994 when the EP was released, people were amazed by their diversity. Again, an STP board with opinions that slant towards STP being more diverse. 

[Humble Kidney Pie]

It's hard to compare BGWTB with STP(sales wise so we can stay somewhat on-topic), pretty much because BGWTB is more similar to today's heavy selling post-grunge market. (Nickleback, Godsmack, Three Day's Grace, Breaking Benjamin, ect..) 
 
Now before there's an explosion of "WHAT?! AiC ISN'T POSTGRUNGE GAHHH!!!!!!", I'm not saying it's shitty post-grunge, but what I am saying is that BGWTB definitely shares that sound with the aforementioned bands.  That's one of the reasons I love BGWTB, it hits that grungy hard rock sound without sucking.
 
The self titled(STP) just isn't the kind of album that is going to sell tons of copies.  When was the last time a Beatles/Bowie inspired, jazzy sounthern pop-rock album went multi-platinum? lol

[wayne gretzky]

Very true, people dont like change

[cheapsurprise]

Since when did the topic become about what people thought in 1994? My point in this thread was that TODAY, the mainstream fans look back and can identify this album with classic Alice In chains whereas STP's album doesn't accomplish that. I don't care about how people thought Jar of Flies was revolutionary in 1994, which I'm betting they didn't anyway.

[lovemachine97]

I just think, as huge music fans, we forget about the average fan that makes up the majority of music listeners.  The average fan likes singles, will collect albums but not nearly as many in as many varieties as we will, and will typically have more rigid taste in what they like.  If they liked Core, they likely won't like Tiny Music...Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop.  One need only look at the 8 million who bought Core and the 2 million who bought Tiny Music...Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop to see this.  There was no lack of promotion or awareness of the 1996 album, and while I admit the tour was flubbed, it was just too different from their established sound for the average fan.  Make no mistake that unless you're U2, and even they're not infallible anymore, it is the average music fans that cause an album to sell multiple millions.  STP's sales have only dwindled further as they have gone further away from the sound of Core.  Each album has sold less.  Purple lost a quarter of its predecessor's sales, Tiny Music...Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop lost two-thirds of its predecessor, No. 4 lost half, Shangri-la Dee Da lost half of that, and Stone Temple Pilots has lost around three-quarters of that.  That's what happens when you release albums that fly in the face of what your average fans want to hear--another "Plush", another "Dead & Bloated", another "Interstate Love Song", another "Big Empty".

Alice in Chains' basic sound is instantly recognizable, from "It Ain't Like That" to "Check My Brain".  Yes, they are more versatile than the average hard rock band.  But no one is going to mistake "Got Me Wrong", "No Excuses", "I Stay Away", or "Rotten Apple" for anybody else.  Despite being different, it is quintessential Alice.  This is not only due to their style, but to Layne's instantly recognizable voice, as well as the 4th interval harmonies that not only weave in and out of Black Gives Way to Blue, but also Jerry's solo albums and Mad Season's Mad Season.  Alice's record sales reflect this.  Facelift went double platinum, Sap went gold, Dirt went quadruple platinum, Jar of Flies went double platinum, Alice in Chains went double platinum, Unplugged went platinum, and in a year Black Gives Way to Blue has gone gold.  They have a consistent sound, and consistent sales.  I'd further argue that Sap is the least Alice sounding of the discography, and it sold the least, Unplugged is a live album so it shouldn't count, and that it's tough to judge Black Gives Way to Blue just yet because it is a new singer and a year old.  If you take those out, a band that is instantly recognizable has gone double platinum, quadruple platinum, and double platinum.

Not only is STP's music more versatile than AIC's, but Weiland's chameleon-like ability to change his voice makes it more difficult to know that it is him singing, and therefore (likely) STP.  Sorry, but saying that "Man in the Box" to "I Stay Away" is the same as "Dead & Bloated" to "And So I Know" is just insane.