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Author Topic: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)  (Read 3392 times)

Eighth Caged Tiger

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It probably has a lot to do with the fact that its release has coincided with me now being six days away from seeing of my best friends for the first time in 16 years (the last time I saw her was May of 2001, and at that time I had a bad feeling it would be the last time I ever saw her - she's made an amazing, hard fought recovery over the last 2-3 years), but the Core megaset has made me really feel the impact of Scott's passing for the first time. 


When he died nearly two years ago, I remember feeling puzzled that it didn't absolutely gut me, as STP and Scott in particular was a huge lifeline for me during some of the hardest years of my life, and up through the time of his death I was a voracious consumer of every interview, performance, etc I could find of both STP and his solo stuff (as well as Velvet Revolver).  This release has had me back on YouTube, looking back at his post-recovery shows like the HOB ones, and this weekend in particular the fantastic VH1 Storytellers show (if anyone know where to find audio of that full, uncut show, let me know).  I've also been listening to and reading pretty  much every promotional appearance the band has made for it, particularly the Eddie Trunk and Matt Pinfield shows, and keep hearing Dean mention how that during the No. 4 era, Scott was truly "back" - the same guy they had recorded and toured for Core with alive and happy and motivated for the first time since he had started his descent in 92-93.  Watching the Storytellers show tonight, it struck me how palpable the love and affection between the guys was, as opposed to the guys I saw play 10 years later, who while still putting on a great show, felt like co-workers forced to work in the same office together who were trying to make the best of it.

So my question is, has it ever been written about or established exactly what happened during the No. 4/Shangri La Dee Da years that got Scott back off the wagon and started the 14-15 year descent to his grave?
He seems so genuinely happy and motivated during those shows, and Dean says he was a man looking to make up for lost time back then.  So what triggered the beginning of the end? It kills me watching these shows - if he had been able to stay in *that* head space, man, could you imagine where they would be now?

MAJOR METAL

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 08:31:18 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, I recall reading in Mary Weiland's book, that Scott fell off the wagon during the recording of Shangri La De Da in early 2001. I think Scott's relapse kicked off after receiving an RX for pain killers after some dental work around that time.


As the SLDD tour progressed, so did Scott's addiction. Going from pills, to booze and dope.


Again, I think Scott's erratic behavior in addition to the poor reception of SLDD compounded tensions in the band.


Very sad, I think an immediate follow to SLDD could have been enormous for the band.   
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NickLorenza

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 10:19:17 AM »
That mention of the poor reception of SLDD is something that I felt was a major turning point for Scott. There just was no turning back after that. After all that positive traction from touring on No.4 and having their biggest hit ever I was sure they were poised for more. Until they weren't... SLDD was a mismanaged mess of a release from the get go with Days Of The Week as the first single as opposed to Coma. Then to release Hollywood Bitch as the second single only to have it banned from radio airplay literally just a few days later due to the "no play list" following 9/11. It sealed the deal that SLDD was going to be a commercial failure. I think it let the air out if the balloon even more. I think the tension just built up and things spiraled out of control again from there.

Pingfah

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 11:57:42 AM »
Nothing happened. Scott struggled with addiction his whole adult life, and eventually succumbed to it.

There was no "trigger" or turning point, it was a long struggle with ups and downs, and eventually more downs than ups.

seattlesound

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 03:53:23 PM »
The only thing I could add is that The amazing tours that were done from 99-02 probably wore a couple of the members out on each other. These guys had their dirty laundry with Scott and dean decided it was best to go public around the mid 90s... not pulling any punches, so even though the might have made amends later, the amount of time they spent together in my opinion was bound to catch up to them. After all it was a scott and dean blowup which was one of the final moments when they were together on their last days of touring in 2002...

Mix this together with the frustrations you guys brought up, and it don’t surprise me it worked the way it did. Everyone lost their patience with one another or just scott...

To me just being another die hard even still today...  this group was never the same to me when they started doing this stuff again in 2008. Anytime I look or listen to STP after their reunion it just never feels to be the same thing... they played great shows and all, but to me it felt like they were forcing it.

Sklashboombash

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 06:39:31 PM »
From the outside looking in, I think they always a fragile band relationship. I remember watching an interview in which Scott mentioned that after touring Core, they "almost broke up". Furthermore, I'd imagine Scott's dabbling with the Magnificent Bastards and of course, the whole Tiny Music/Talk Show recordings further fractured things. Despite making more incredible music together in the years that followed, I think the seeds of betrayal planted in those days were an underlying sticking point.

I think if either side tasted significant success without the other, they probably would have moved on from each other much earlier, but they realized that they were stronger together.

That's just my viewpoint.
STP: 07.31.00 | 08.04.01 | 10.24.01 | 04.23.02 | 10.11.02 | 05.31.08 | 09.05.10
SW: 11.30.11 | 03.12.13 | 08.29.14 | 03.10.15
VR: 05.28.04 | 05.18.07 || AoA: 02.01.07
CheSTP: 09.06.13 | 04.25.15 | 09.20.15 || JeffTP: 07.28.18 | 09.15.19

loungefly90

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 06:50:36 PM »
"Despite reports that the band had begun work on a sixth studio album in 2002, the band had dissolved by the end of that year, after reports of an altercation between Dean DeLeo and Weiland after the last show of Stone Temple Pilots' fall 2002 tour. As a capstone to the band's career, Atlantic Records released a greatest hits album, Thank You, with a bonus DVD of archive material and music videos, in 2003."

While I know that Dean and Scott truly loved one another, my opinion is that Dean always felt Scott was the one who was keeping them down, which is sort of true. Of all the times the guys tolerated Scott's issues, Dean always made it very apparent that his tolerance for it was extremely thin. The comment that always sticks out to me was during a press conference (1996???) where an Mtv interviewer asked, "What does it mean to you guys to see Scott looking so clean and healthy?" Dean's response was, "It hasn't been that long."

As far as the specific timeline mentioned, see the above quote. My understanding is that Dean and Scott got into a fistfight and had to be pulled off from one another.

loungefly90

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 07:06:26 PM »
The only thing I could add is that The amazing tours that were done from 99-02 probably wore a couple of the members out on each other. These guys had their dirty laundry with Scott and dean decided it was best to go public around the mid 90s... not pulling any punches, so even though the might have made amends later, the amount of time they spent together in my opinion was bound to catch up to them. After all it was a scott and dean blowup which was one of the final moments when they were together on their last days of touring in 2002...

Mix this together with the frustrations you guys brought up, and it don’t surprise me it worked the way it did. Everyone lost their patience with one another or just scott...

To me just being another die hard even still today...  this group was never the same to me when they started doing this stuff again in 2008. Anytime I look or listen to STP after their reunion it just never feels to be the same thing... they played great shows and all, but to me it felt like they were forcing it.

These are great points, specifically mentioning 2008. Frankly, I don't feel enough attention was ever given to just how different of a person Scott was around this time. While I had seen him using drugs and being under the influence of drugs in the past, this version (the final version) of Scott literally made me think he had suffered a stroke or something similar. He wasn't able to pull it together or even attempt to fool us any longer as he had done in the past. I had always felt that something significant happened to him health-wise between the VR breakup and then him being back with STP. It's as if he wasn't really present at all and then when we did the solo touring, I felt like his days were numbered.

Sklashboombash

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 07:37:50 PM »
Not saying that they didn't miss playing music together, but by all accounts, there was big money fueling the 2008 reunion.
While I think he still delivered some good performances during that reunion tour, it's clear where the band relationship was at, knowing what we know about how they recorded self-titled.


As a side note: Scott was well aware of his talent. I'm sure he got off on being "wanted/needed".
Just like Scott joining VR and "leaving STP" behind when things soured in '02, I view 2008 as the reverse - Scott went back to STP, leaving VR to scramble without a head.

Health-wise, he still carried himself, despite reports of his using/drinking.
Later, when STP fired him and VR had no interest in working with him on a full-time basis again, his life really derailed...coincidence? Or perhaps the years of abuse had finally caught up to him.
STP: 07.31.00 | 08.04.01 | 10.24.01 | 04.23.02 | 10.11.02 | 05.31.08 | 09.05.10
SW: 11.30.11 | 03.12.13 | 08.29.14 | 03.10.15
VR: 05.28.04 | 05.18.07 || AoA: 02.01.07
CheSTP: 09.06.13 | 04.25.15 | 09.20.15 || JeffTP: 07.28.18 | 09.15.19

Toxic34

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 08:01:35 PM »
I think a lot of the above comments are on the money. All of these things played out in terms of what led to things unraveling and Scott being unable to stay clean.


There's also the fact that Scott never got over what happened concerning Tiny Music and the cancellations, and that it carried over when the same thing happened with VR. Scott went absolutely ballistic, and once the STP reunion occurred, he was badmouthing Slash and Duff every chance he got, calling them hypocrites who he had to carry, because they were the real fuckups, not him. He even went so far as to say, "the reason they're not in Guns N' Roses right now is because of their own behavior, not Axl's." (Granted, this was before Axl had taken any of the kind of steps to improve himself the way he is now). He also kept on focusing on how before he agreed to do the 2008 tour, it was essentially a requirement for Dean to apologize and say "I shouldn't have cancelled the tour and called you a junkie when I was using myself." Scott simply held grudges for ungodly long, and it's clear there was never any true forgiveness in his eyes.


Simply put, after the divorce from Mary and the death of his brother, something happened in Scott, a switch that was never flipped back. It infected his spirit and ate away at him, little by little. But like the boiling frog, he just acclimated to it and didn't make any real move to change. In many ways, his spirit was just profoundly corrupted by its influence, that there was no chance he'd ever truly see the light. Especially when he began rewriting his history of addiction and denying up and down that he was using during the final years, and just gave empty boasts that he could front STP and VR at the same time in his current state.


I never thought in a million years that we'd be in a world where Scott was six feet under, Chester killed himself, and Axl ended up having the last laugh by actually working to be a better person and have Slash and Duff back with him onstage. But then, I didn't expect a lot of things of where the world is at not politically and culturally, or the way that so many things that a lot of us were looking forward to (Human Head Studios' Prey 2, Code Lyoko finale, Metalocalypse finale, Neill Blomkamp's Alien film) ended up spiked and then a lot of people who had supported it all then went on to claim they never wanted it anyways, and just shit all over it. I simply don't understand it all. More than ever, I feel like we somehow got separated from the actual reality, and we just ended up in the Biff Tannen timeline.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 08:13:40 PM by Toxic34 »

Eighth Caged Tiger

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 08:56:24 PM »
All really good insights - I've always meant to either read or listen to Mary's book, and at some point time permitting I will.  I've often wondered if their marriage wasn't as bad for Scott as it was good for him, and I don't mean that as a swipe at Mary in any way, I just mean that two addicts who are both very early into recovery and who both have mental health issues outside of addiction is likely a hardcore pressure cooker situation.  In hindsight that may have been another one of Scott's problems - was he ever single *and* clean at the same time?  If you need to constantly have *someone* with you, that's a major red flag, and just asking for codependency quicksand.

I do remember an interview where Scott was very outspoken about his hurt for the poor reception of SLDD, particularly as it had been the first time he had really laid himself bare lyrically instead of burying everything in metaphor, and the reaction had been veritable crickets.

I've always felt like (and it's only been re-enforced the last few weeks) Dean deeply cared for Scott, maybe on a deeper level than the rest of the guts.  On the (really good) Yahoo SpinBack videos, in particular the one where they are discussing making the last album, Dean gets very emotional describing the new posse Scott had surrounded himself with/walled himself off with, and he gets audibly emotional on the Pinfield podcast as well. 

I agree that Dean was often the hardest on Scott, but I understand that as well - Dean was already 30 (possibly 31 depending on the date they started) when they were recording Core, nearly a full decade older than Scott, and I think Dean A) has always vividly seen the potential that band had when all four members were in sync and B) knew that the clock was ticking a little faster for him than the rest of the band - when you're job is being a performer, it doesn't matter if you're an athlete or a musician, your peak years tend to be the top half of your thirties.  I think the critical lashing they took at the beginning made that pressure on both Dean and the band that much greater - *just* as they would start to get the recognition they so richly deserved (both of their peers and the press), Scott would crash and burn.  That cycle would repeat itself constantly, even as recently as the raves for the SXSW show in 2008 when they initially reformed, followed quickly by him starting to be obscenely late or just no-show once the full tour began. 

It's a given to me that STP would be a Hall of Fame band (possibly already nominated since they qualify now) *had* things kept moving forward after No. 4 and SLDD.  There's no doubt in my mind about it.  I honestly think if they achieved that, then they probably wouldn't even be bringing on a new singer - I think bringing in Chester and now whoever they have picked is born out of hope to capture some of the legacy they were denied due to Scott's addiction.  I've got a friend who has poo-pooed any thought of there even *being* an STP without Scott, but I understand what they are wanting to accomplish (not going out as a "What could have been.." band), and I'm rooting for them.

It just really sucks - even the Scott solo show I went to at the end of 2009, which started right on time and was AMAZING, felt like the real, live Scott.  He definitely had a lot of miles on him, but he was visibly happy, and sang beautifully that night (Killing Me Softly and Atlanta being standouts).  I think Doug was truly his last anchor - they were joking around for a lot of the show that night, clearly enjoying each other's company.  Once Doug announced his departure, I felt like that was probably a sign Scott was about to reach the end, and had run off his last true port in the storm, and that turned out to be the case.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:09:26 PM by Eighth Caged Tiger »

ejsme

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 10:11:39 PM »
I think a lot of the above comments are on the money. All of these things played out in terms of what led to things unraveling and Scott being unable to stay clean.


There's also the fact that Scott never got over what happened concerning Tiny Music and the cancellations, and that it carried over when the same thing happened with VR. Scott went absolutely ballistic, and once the STP reunion occurred, he was badmouthing Slash and Duff every chance he got, calling them hypocrites who he had to carry, because they were the real fuckups, not him. He even went so far as to say, "the reason they're not in Guns N' Roses right now is because of their own behavior, not Axl's." (Granted, this was before Axl had taken any of the kind of steps to improve himself the way he is now). He also kept on focusing on how before he agreed to do the 2008 tour, it was essentially a requirement for Dean to apologize and say "I shouldn't have cancelled the tour and called you a junkie when I was using myself." Scott simply held grudges for ungodly long, and it's clear there was never any true forgiveness in his eyes.


Simply put, after the divorce from Mary and the death of his brother, something happened in Scott, a switch that was never flipped back. It infected his spirit and ate away at him, little by little. But like the boiling frog, he just acclimated to it and didn't make any real move to change. In many ways, his spirit was just profoundly corrupted by its influence, that there was no chance he'd ever truly see the light. Especially when he began rewriting his history of addiction and denying up and down that he was using during the final years, and just gave empty boasts that he could front STP and VR at the same time in his current state.


I never thought in a million years that we'd be in a world where Scott was six feet under, Chester killed himself, and Axl ended up having the last laugh by actually working to be a better person and have Slash and Duff back with him onstage. But then, I didn't expect a lot of things of where the world is at not politically and culturally, or the way that so many things that a lot of us were looking forward to (Human Head Studios' Prey 2, Code Lyoko finale, Metalocalypse finale, Neill Blomkamp's Alien film) ended up spiked and then a lot of people who had supported it all then went on to claim they never wanted it anyways, and just shit all over it. I simply don't understand it all. More than ever, I feel like we somehow got separated from the actual reality, and we just ended up in the Biff Tannen timeline.

So well put! Couldn't have said it better myself.

EyesOfDisarray

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2017, 12:00:34 AM »
I just wanted to say these are all very insightful posts. I don't have anything meaningful to add that hasn't been said yet. I agree with everything said here.

TheWaterThatYouLeave

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 02:49:04 AM »
I just wanted to say these are all very insightful posts. I don't have anything meaningful to add that hasn't been said yet. I agree with everything said here.

Yeah, there was  a lot of insight in the Core anniversary interviews and I think that has helped a lot of people here on the forum understand the bands dynamic a great deal better.

MAJOR METAL

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Re: When did things start falling apart the second time (post No. 4)
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 10:30:23 AM »

To me just being another die hard even still today...  this group was never the same to me when they started doing this stuff again in 2008. Anytime I look or listen to STP after their reunion it just never feels to be the same thing... they played great shows and all, but to me it felt like they were forcing it.

Dude, isn't this the truth. The first thing I noticed early in the reunion was how damaged Scott's voice had become since he was last active in STP. Secondly, I never saw Scott mangle and forget so many of his lyrics as he did after the 2008 reunion. I saw them twice in 2008. At the PNC in NJ ( the infamous come out Axl concert) and Jones Beach in NY.

Sadly even as a hard core STP fan, I left both concerts thinking that was just a huge waste of $. Actually, I thought, if the performances were going to be that bad, I wish they had capped off at SLDD.

Yeah, the whole STP reunion of 08-12, still feels very weird to me. Just as the self titled album does. Not saying it doesn't have some great STP moments on the record, but overall to me at least, it lacks passion and the imagination felt in all of their previous work. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:32:21 AM by MAJOR METAL »
If you should die before me ask if you could bring a friend.
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